camael or samael

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Re: camael or samael

Postby raum215 » Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:59 am

Kamael is Cheth Mem Heh Aleph Lamed. The name means "hot el" meaning "The burning of [El]" and thus also the Rage of [El] as much as the Warmth of [El]. The root is ChM which is the proto-hebrew for "hot".

This is supported by Chammah which is also a word for the Sun, and sharing a root of the name Shammash (KhMH became KhMSh). Then Again for years Shammash was englished Chemosh. There is LOTS of wiggle room, the best guidance is use a "real" word in some language for the spelling, and something relative.

As for Samael meaning "poisoner of god", it is funny that KhMH an ancient proto-hebrew root means Hot, but it also translated as "Poison" in the bible, and specifally the poison of a scorpion or serpents or the poison of the lord eve, such as in this verse.

Job 6:4
For the arrows of the Almighty [are] within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.


Etymology of Samael withstanding, I have found no proto-hebrew root. But this verse is to me the perfect one to illustrate that "poison of God" is not a bad thing, for it is a sign that his arrow hit to the soul and you are in his aweful presence.

As for the idea a word is an angel: actually, there is to the magician not much difference between the names is some context except that he knows their roots, and we see that it is more that Kamael is Geburah as dispensor to the sun of Tiphareth, while Samael (theoretically) is more the *heart* of its true severity, a wiping out of life. Regardless, both encapsulate both Madim and Geburah quite well and share a common root and concept. Khamael is proven to have older linguistic roots.

For example a burning wrath can easily bring to mind punishment and fever, and the bale sun scorched day has surely the effect of poison on the land. But the whole of Egypt was said to have come from Ham, son of noah, and it was kamael that killed the Nile, and some say it is the source of the plague of fire that was prelude to the exodus. Speculation has always been part of the magicians true set of tools.

Always remember you are dealing with people who were very semi-literate and spanning huge language barriers. They were usually working in different languages, and they were writing phonetically, according to their education but often for a varied but by no means broad audience.

Wish you well.
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Re: camael or samael

Postby raum215 » Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:08 am

Here is another perfect example of angelic names going amiss from Liber Juratus, the sworne booke:

And in the same side of the heptagon write this name of the holy angel, which is Casziel.
And in the next side from the right-most, the name of the holy angel, which is Satquiel.
Then in the next Samael, and in the next Raphael, afterwards Anael, afterwards Michael, followed by Gabriel. And thus the seven sides of the heptagon will be completed.

It should be clear this is the angels of the seven heavens in assiah in chaldean order:

Saturn - Shabbatai - Casziel - Cassiel
Juptier - Tzedek - Satquiel - Tzadkiel
Mars - Madim - Samael - Khamael (if you prefer)
Sol - Shamash - Raphael
Venus - Nogah - Anael
Mercury - Kokab - Michael
Luna - Lebhnah - Gabriel

This clearly aligns Samael as connected to Mars - which I would attribute Khamael which some may spell in English Chamael, but I rarely if ever use English in Grimoire Magick, so I am far less concerned with that.
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Re: camael or samael

Postby BrotherEnoch » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:13 am

raum215 wrote:Kamael is Cheth Mem Heh Aleph Lamed. The name means "hot el" meaning "The burning of [El]" and thus also the Rage of [El] as much as the Warmth of [El]. The root is ChM which is the proto-hebrew for "hot".


raum215, do you have a Hebrew source for this Angel? By source I mean a text. Torah, Talmud, even one of those more eccentric medieval mezuzahs?
"By the way, I like your wizard: instead of making all the wealthiest women in love with himself, and getting thousands out of them, he condescends to pick up £15 by rendering Glaucias irresistible."
-Tychiades in Lucian's "The Liar"
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Re: camael or samael

Postby raum215 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:33 pm

http://ejmmm2007.blogspot.com/2010/01/a ... ls-of.html

This story is in the Tractate Nedarim. Wrath and Anger are personified. Will this suffice? My books are in boxes until I move at the end of the month. It is on the official blog for The Encyclopedia of Jewish Myth, Magic, and Mysticism.
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Re: camael or samael

Postby BrotherEnoch » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:10 pm

I was actually looking for Cheth Mem Heh Aleph Lamed as a proper Angelic name and the I was going to see if it is more likely the source of Camael. More likely than poor choice in letters during transliterating Samael.
"By the way, I like your wizard: instead of making all the wealthiest women in love with himself, and getting thousands out of them, he condescends to pick up £15 by rendering Glaucias irresistible."
-Tychiades in Lucian's "The Liar"
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Re: camael or samael

Postby raum215 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:29 am

Let me explain a little further, if I may. This is my working basis, not a thing I have read somewhere - a product of research, what I feel is a real *occult* truth simply because it took work to find. :lol:

What started this was I can never find is a basis for "sam" meaning poison. Still can't. Can't find the basis that anyone ever says for samael. I turn to biblical hebrew, which I have studied since 1998.

In the bible, chemah and rosh (Resh aleph shin) are translated to poison. "blind" is ayin vau resh, Chamut (root being Chamah) is venom.

Wrath of god is literally Chemah-el
Poison of god is literally Chemah-el
Venom of God is Cham-ut-El

No one can show me where in Hebrew there are instances of "SMA" meaning "venom" or "blind" or even being a word? I ask rabbis, I ask scholars at the Graduate Theological Union in U.C. Berkeley. no one knows why people think it means "Poison of God."

What I feel happened is somewhere along the way, Translators got KAMAEL for the differences in Chi and Cheth, and then it was translated to Camael in latin. Then it was translated to Samael. If SMA is a word, in hebrew, I can't find an instance of its usage at all. This could work both ways, of course, because Samekh was long translated to C in English, such that is remains in Strong's Biblical hebrew concordances in most cases. No biblical hebrew concordance I see, has SMA in it at all. Simple, it is not a hebrew word recorded in any dictionary I have seen, it is not in the Torah, the Tanakh, or the Hebrew bible at all.

I think if there is a "Samael" of antiquity, it is not the construct that emerges, and it is not a word in Hebrew, and so has little place in jewish context, where it will no doubt be mistreated by monotheist superstition - as names such as Ba'al were. It is likely a kerub or something, such as michael was to the peoples that the Hebrews encountered or subjugated. This is likely the source of the Ethiopic evidence of its use - synonymous with "Satan", scarce remnants of the glory of once-great Kush and derivative writings of antiquity. This is a description that does not seem to match later accounts and ideas entirely.

So, now for the Jewish rescension and the rise of Western Magus: when we see Samael come back into use. where did this begin?

Rabbi Yose ben Chalafta was one of the disciples of Rabbi Akiva himself, and he is credited with the oldest rabbinical record of the name Samael. He described Michael and Samael standing before the Shekinah during the exodus when Sephora has to circumcise the child Moses would not. This story is the oldest record of "Samael" in rabbinical tradition I have found. The story is the essentially same of Wrath and Anger, where Wrath is "Chemah" and anger is Af and these are angels of the lord. So to Rabbi Yose, Chemah and Af were Samael and michael - one for and one against the accused Moses. Perhaps Chemah as advesary in this case is where Satan (advesary) became associated with Samael. Thus this "samael" of which the Qabalist and magus would attribute unto would be Chemah, expanded to Chemael, for the sufficient suffix for an angel. This means their could be rabbinical integrity to the qabala, all the way back to Ethiopic texts.

My conclusion is this is the Samael / Kamael / Chamuel / etc. The Advesary Chemah-el

And his name is spelled Cheth mem Heh, expanded with an Aleph Lamed, and means both "poison" and "wrath" - "of el" - specifically the Wrath of God and the poison of Scorpions - which is easily a great martial indicator itself, in that Akrabh (Scropio) is ruled by Madim (Mars). He is advesary, by the will if the lord, which ties in even to the geomancy for Mars and far more ancient cultures.
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Re: camael or samael

Postby Slater » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:39 am

Evoke both and see who appears before you, then ask...
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Re: camael or samael

Postby raum215 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:18 am

I do test my assumptions before I share them.

In my experience alot of beings that have names that seem *off* are much more effective and successful evocations when you realize their names are mangled by dialect and spelling variants. Learn Hebrew and streamline it, in my opinion. Learn the aramaic and ancient hebrew and it becomes something WAY different than your average modern magic book - with origins clearly older than the advent of the Bible, and it is not steeped in the baggage coming out of the Dark Ages.
That's my experience. Some people don't share this opinion. some people have reasons for their own. don't think because I demand a well-founded one, i don't think there is other equally valid possibilities. I just don't see any evident in this case.

סמי

is what I think is the root of 'Samael"/Samiel, and it was a borrow word TO Hebrew that never caught on - indicating its roots are not proto-Hebrew. it means when it shows up "blind, or without sight, or to take sight away". It is likely it is proto-grecian. It is retained in the greek as Σεμιέλ, Semiel. It basically means "without sight - god" - hence "without sight of God" or "Blinded by god." This is why some have mentioned it in relation to Issac (who went blind), father of Jacob/Israel. Also, it is said that Chemah and Af blinded Moses, and later Issac - so Chemah has a connection to "blind" as well. both Chemah and "Samael" get credit for wrestling with Jacob as well, so it is one other step to seeing in the biblical hebrew Chemah is a good fit. This reflects what I see when I evoked him. He fits the mars role to a T in every regard. Chemah/Chemahel (in hebrew) feels right and also makes the most sense in a scholarly context - to me. And if you read Giordano Bruno, you will see to me why what you put in your seal matters aside from what being has the best showing.

One think I know, for me, in relation to the authenticity of the actual magick I have performed, "Kamael" was not near the calibur of Chemahel (in hebrew) after I knew enough to give due regard, and people who cited my "issues with mars" still don't get the same effects as I do now. :toss

Honestly, the excuse and reason felt made up or distorted badly just like the results. My girlfriend at the time (about ten years ago) was the Imperator in training for a golden-Dawn based temple I was affiliated with. She had to do kamael work for the "red ray" to andle the god forms and such, and it was imbalancing her like crazy and just felt "fictional" in a sloppy way. It was a final straw for me to just seek elsewhere than the G.D. for most anything. She asked me to help and I got nothing but smoke and mirrors in evocation. I am very unused to this kind of choddy result. I tackled this direcly then got an answer, confirmed ceremonially from Holy Michael, and saw WOW that was helpful, and scholarship has proven it to be true in my mind.
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Re: camael or samael

Postby luvsam » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:54 am

I want to share my ideas which I got through my experiences. So if you ask me a resource, I have no any answer but my own experiences.

I'd rather call Samael "scapegoat". He is known as a fallen one, even as fallen ones' patron. What I observed and believe is that he is still an archangel who works for the system. (Very big and bright one) Even if his name means "Poison of God", well, poison can kill, yes, but poison can give your life back as well. He sees possibilities, and whispers possibilities to humans with their own voices. It's never his fault if you choose the bad choices. He has been doing what he should do since the beginning. I call him "scapegoat" because people always need a scapegoat to whitewash their weaknesses. I should admit that he is a bit different from the other angels. Imagine a family that involves a lot of children, and think that one of them is a bit naughty, because he can see all the possibilities which means he sees all the stupidity and mistakes people will do. I cannot get mad at this family member just because he knows future much more than the others, and who sees people who are always choosing the bad choice. I'm not sure if I could make myself clear, but I tried :wub
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Re: camael or samael

Postby Binyamin » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:46 pm

Wanderer wrote:From what I can tell, Camael is indeed an angel that flows within the Mars energy current. As you noted, He is the both a reconciler and a judicator, which makes a great deal of sense, as Mars involves conquering by the sword, so to speak.
[...]
Keeping that in mind, I'd be more likely to call Camael when a sense of peace and strength was sought. I'd call Samael for the wet work, so to speak.


raum215 wrote:Kamael is Cheth Mem Heh Aleph Lamed. The name means "hot el" meaning "The burning of [El]" and thus also the Rage of [El] as much as the Warmth of [El]. The root is ChM which is the proto-hebrew for "hot".


I did some visionary work with Camael, and found your descriptions to be spot on, Wanderer and Raum215. Camael had a magmatic as well as a warming personality, being active in battle-rage type of situations as well as in warm "masculine" friendships.
On the difference between the two, Camael also seemed to suggest
raum215 wrote:that it is more that Kamael is Geburah as dispensor to the sun of Tiphareth, while Samael (theoretically) is more the *heart* of its true severity, a wiping out of life
, with the glimpse of Samael I was given almost sporting a slight Saturnian flavor in it's denial/suffocation.
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